Discussion:
OT: Kerry/Edwards Rally
(too old to reply)
Evil Elvis
2004-07-09 22:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....


--EE--
John5240
2004-07-09 23:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
don't bother. nobody cares about those east coast liberals.
Brian K
2004-07-10 03:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
--EE--
Don't bother, we really don't give a shit .......
--
Brian K
T-7
If quitters never win, and winners never quit, then
who is the fool who said, "Quit while you're
ahead?"

For Brian K's Las Vegas & Pictures Go To.......
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/3591/
BLJK8
2004-07-10 04:35:20 UTC
Permalink
post it somewhere else.
Bert
2004-07-10 22:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian K
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
--EE--
Don't bother, we really don't give a shit .......
Got to agree with ya'...

Bert
BR Eagle
2004-07-10 05:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
--EE--
Question: Could they keep their hands off each other?
John5240
2004-07-10 11:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
--EE--
Question: Could they keep their hands off each other?
Kerry was on larry king live 2 nights ago and was asked about the "terror
threat" as we head for the election. he replied "They offered to brief me, but
I just don't have the time". This is from a guy who wants to be president?
Dr.Z
2004-07-10 15:08:18 UTC
Permalink
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Mike
2004-07-10 22:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?


Mike
(conservative, but not a Limbaugh listener)



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Toad The Dead Vegan
2004-07-11 00:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
Mike
(conservative, but not a Limbaugh listener)
Because he writes the talking points all you bug-eyed right wing
fundamentalist nitwits constantly parrot whenever there's a political
discussion?

Just a thought.

Toad
who despises Bush, and doesn't think Kerry is much better

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Russell Patterson
2004-07-11 05:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
Post by Mike
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
Mike
(conservative, but not a Limbaugh listener)
Because he writes the talking points all you bug-eyed right wing
fundamentalist nitwits constantly parrot whenever there's a political
discussion?
Who writes yours? Whoopi Goldberg?




://www.uncensored-news.com
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
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respond here or email responses to cruzincat"deletethis"@cruzincat.com
Toad The Dead Vegan
2004-07-11 16:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russell Patterson
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
Post by Mike
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
Mike
(conservative, but not a Limbaugh listener)
Because he writes the talking points all you bug-eyed right wing
fundamentalist nitwits constantly parrot whenever there's a political
discussion?
Who writes yours? Whoopi Goldberg?
Another snappy retort from the bug-eyed right wing fundamentalist nitwit
contingent.

Unlike you parrots, I think for myself. I'm neither conservative nor
liberal, neither Republican nor Democart, I'm an independent
libertarian.

I'll lay down the smack on anyone who deserves it, no matter their
political orientation.

The bug-eyed brigade can't think for themselves, just as the Michael
Moore worshippers need their idol to tell them what to think.

What this country needs is more people who investigate, read, and
process information in their own way and not follow blindly goofballs
like Rush or Moore.

I try to stay away from political discussions here because 1) I do that
elsewhere on Usenet, and 2) the debates here simply parrot the talking
points of Rush or Moore. There is very little thinking done about
politics here.

Fine with me, this group is about Las Vegas, not politics.

But when politics does come up, maybe you drones could insert a bit of
common sense or a semblance of independent thought into the debate.

Nah........too taxing on the brain.

Toad

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Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 08:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
Because he writes the talking points all you bug-eyed right wing
fundamentalist nitwits constantly parrot whenever there's a political
discussion?
Funny, if you listen to Rush on Monday, then 4 months from now turn
on his station and listen to him again he just spews forth the same
garbage. It's "hate the Liberals" and "bash Clinton". But I guess
that's what we can expect from a college dropout junkie hippocrite.
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
Just a thought.
Rush doesn't want you to think. You bad boy.
Post by Toad The Dead Vegan
Toad
who despises Bush, and doesn't think Kerry is much better
I think Kerry is a LOT better than Bush. Too bad he really isn't
more of a Classic Liberal, which is what the country really needs. I
thought his speech was really excellent when I went to see him and
Edwards. And I would cast my vote for him on election day over Bush
and his war criminal cronies any day.


--EE--
Gpinlv
2004-07-11 16:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Kerry/Edwards Rally
a Classic Liberal, which is what the country really needs.
Nobody is stopping you from sending all of the paltry sum of money that you
earn to the government for redistribution. Just please don't impose such
insanity on the rest of us.
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-11 23:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gpinlv
Subject: Re: Kerry/Edwards Rally
a Classic Liberal, which is what the country really needs.
Nobody is stopping you from sending all of the paltry sum of money that you
earn to the government for redistribution. Just please don't impose such
insanity on the rest of us.
Then why vote for Bush? Thanks to the Reagan and Bush I deficits, we are
already paying 20% of each tax dollar toward serving their debt. When
the debt that Bush II comes due, we'll be paying even more toward debt
service. Bush supporters all seem to conveniently forget that the huge
debt that Bush and the congressional Republicans are running up will
eventually need to be payed off, and guess who pays that debt and the
interest on it? Nope! Its not Bush.
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-12 00:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hearn
Then why vote for Bush? Thanks to the Reagan and Bush I deficits, we are
already paying 20% of each tax dollar toward serving their debt. When
the debt that Bush II comes due, we'll be paying even more toward debt
service. Bush supporters all seem to conveniently forget that the huge
debt that Bush and the congressional Republicans are running up will
eventually need to be payed off, and guess who pays that debt and the
interest on it? Nope! Its not Bush.
Not RR's. Revenues tripled over 5 years. The deficits were because he did
not veto enough.CBO data indicates that only about 1/3 of the current def can
be attibuted to the cuts in taxes. Rest is spending, which GWB has certainly
had a hand in letting get out of hand.

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
Gpinlv
2004-07-12 04:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Kerry/Edwards Rally
Post by Gpinlv
Subject: Re: Kerry/Edwards Rally
a Classic Liberal, which is what the country really needs.
Nobody is stopping you from sending all of the paltry sum of money that
you
Post by Gpinlv
earn to the government for redistribution. Just please don't impose such
insanity on the rest of us.
Then why vote for Bush?
I voted for Bush in 2000. At the moment, I will likely vote for Bush
again, considering the alternatives. Bush is not the perfect president, and
I'd prefer Powell rather than Cheney for the VP, but with no conservatives
running for either major party, Bush is the lesser of all available evils.
Thanks to the Reagan and Bush I deficits, we are
already paying 20% of each tax dollar toward serving their debt.
I'd rather pay 80% of each tax dollar to a strong defense than .000001%
for the salary of Ruth Bader-Ginsburg.
Andrew in Alabama
2004-07-12 11:39:25 UTC
Permalink
Damb, ***@cs.com (Gpinlv) do I have to 'splain EVERYTHING to your
dumn ass???
Post by Gpinlv
with no conservatives
running for either major party,
Too true.


Andrew <-- is it ???? yet?

"Whatever happens in Unincorporated Clark County stays in
Unincorporated Clark County."
(Steve Harder-Kucera in alt.vacation.las-vegas)
John5240
2004-07-11 23:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Funny, if you listen to Rush on Monday, then 4 months from now turn
on his station and listen to him again he just spews forth the same
garbage. It's "hate the Liberals" and "bash Clinton". But I guess
that's what we can expect from a college dropout junkie hippocrite.
Rush is no worse than woopie...that ugly, black welfare mama. Thats what she
was, before some idiot thought she had talent. he was wrong.
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-11 23:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John5240
Post by Evil Elvis
Funny, if you listen to Rush on Monday, then 4 months from now turn
on his station and listen to him again he just spews forth the same
garbage. It's "hate the Liberals" and "bash Clinton". But I guess
that's what we can expect from a college dropout junkie hippocrite.
Rush is no worse than woopie...that ugly, black welfare mama. Thats what she
was, before some idiot thought she had talent. he was wrong.
Since when did "woopie" have a nation-wide radio talk show geared toward
politics, or did I miss something?
Generic
2004-07-12 00:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hearn
Post by John5240
Post by Evil Elvis
Funny, if you listen to Rush on Monday, then 4 months from now turn
on his station and listen to him again he just spews forth the same
garbage. It's "hate the Liberals" and "bash Clinton". But I guess
that's what we can expect from a college dropout junkie hippocrite.
Rush is no worse than woopie...that ugly, black welfare mama. Thats what she
was, before some idiot thought she had talent. he was wrong.
Since when did "woopie" have a nation-wide radio talk show geared toward
politics, or did I miss something?
She's repeatedly made strongly anti-conservative comments as host of the
Oscar's and at Democratic fundraisers. Hence the criticism.

-John
DocTCW
2004-07-12 02:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John5240
Rush is no worse than woopie...that ugly, black welfare mama. Thats what she
was, before some idiot thought she had talent. he was wrong.
Whoopie is a very smart and talented lady.
She is entitled to her opinions, and by virtue of her celebrity, is able to
voice those opinions. Aren't you sad that you can't say the same for yourself?

Tom
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 02:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Post by John5240
Rush is no worse than woopie...that ugly, black welfare mama. Thats what she
was, before some idiot thought she had talent. he was wrong.
Whoopie is a very smart and talented lady.
Talented, maybe. Smart, I think not. So she can memorize lines. What
credentials does she have to be defined as smart? Maybe, b/c she spouts
the liberal line?
Post by DocTCW
She is entitled to her opinions, and by virtue of her celebrity, is able to
voice those opinions. Aren't you sad that you can't say the same for yourself?
Yes she is. I can spout, just not as many people hear me. And she is ugly.
Evil Elvis
2004-07-12 06:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by John5240
Rush is no worse than woopie...
Rush is a liar, plain and simple.
Post by John5240
that ugly, black welfare mama.
I don't recall her being on welfare.
Post by John5240
Thats what she
was, before some idiot thought she had talent.
Nice of her to pull herself up from the ranks and become one of the
most successful African-Americans in film and television. Did you
know this "black welfare mama" is executive producer many a movie and
tv show?
Post by John5240
he was wrong.
Sorry you are so bitter and envious about her being successful.
Resentment is an ugly thing, but then again so are your words.


--EE--
David Berman
2004-07-12 06:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
I don't recall her being on welfare.
EE, I do believe that Whoopie, whose real name I think is Karen Johnson, was
for at least a short time a welfare mother before launching her showbiz
career.

I would say that demonstrates the true intended purpose of welfare, which
is, ideally, not to keep a person on the dole for life, but to give the
person a chance to get his/her act together. Whoopie obviously managed to do
this. And regardless of what one might think of her politics, she has done a
great deal of charitable work and donated a lot of money to worthy causes.
Her work for Comic Relief is just one example of many.
--
--Best from David in NV
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-12 12:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Berman
I would say that demonstrates the true intended purpose of welfare, which
is, ideally, not to keep a person on the dole for life, but to give the
person a chance to get his/her act together. Whoopie obviously managed to do
this. And regardless of what one might think of her politics, she has done a
great deal of charitable work and donated a lot of money to worthy causes.
Her work for Comic Relief is just one example of many.
That isn't (wasn't) how it was set-up in real life. For most of the
welfare programs (it was mitigated somewhat by the Clinton Welfare Changes)
there were very strong disincentives to go off once on. It was possible, after
you got passed a certain income, to lose $1.50 in benefits for every $1 in
income. And neither side wanted to put MCare on a sliding scale so that you
could keep your health insurace. There were no incentives to get off and in
fact many disincentives.
Those who actually got off welfare were largely amazing people who did so
despite, not because of, the way the system was set-up.

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-11 03:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
Maybe because Rush is the unofficial spokesman for conservatives.
Generic
2004-07-11 04:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hearn
Post by Mike
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
Maybe because Rush is the unofficial spokesman for conservatives.
No more than Al Franken being the unofficial spokesman for liberals.

That is painting with a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide brush!


I thought Rush was quite funny in his early national days (around 1990), but
never took him remotely seriously. I was scared by those who either
worshipped or hated him, for they never realized he was first and foremost
an entertainer. At the time I spoke with an in-law who worked in the radio
business--he said Rush was marketed as pure entertainment, not politics.
After he went mainstream he became less funny and a spokesman for some.

-John
john
2004-07-11 05:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Generic
Post by Shawn Hearn
Post by Mike
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
Maybe because Rush is the unofficial spokesman for conservatives.
No more than Al Franken being the unofficial spokesman for liberals.
That is painting with a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide brush!
I thought Rush was quite funny in his early national days (around 1990), but
never took him remotely seriously. I was scared by those who either
worshipped or hated him, for they never realized he was first and foremost
an entertainer. At the time I spoke with an in-law who worked in the radio
business--he said Rush was marketed as pure entertainment, not politics.
After he went mainstream he became less funny and a spokesman for some.
-John
I will be so happy when they nail Limbaugh for going to many doctors
trying to illegally get a huge cache of prescription drugs.
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 08:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
What is a "conservative opinion"?
Post by Mike
Mike
(conservative, but not a Limbaugh listener)
I have no problem with TRUE Conservatives; less govmt., less taxes,
etc., True Conservatives leave most people alone. Actually, IMO I
think that most TRUE Conservatives and most Classic Liberals
(Libertarians, i.e., me!) have a lot in common. What bugs me is that
Limbaugh claims he is a Conservative, which is a lie. He is a
Christian Fundamentalist. He hates free thought, freedom of choice
and anyone who differs from him or other Fundie idiots are quickly
labelled 'Liberal' and demonized.

I don't know if you have ever studied history or read the US
Constitution but there is something called the First Amendment. We
ALL have the right to worship, speak and believe the way we would like
to. For some reason these so-called "Conservatives" don't agree.
They have to pass Amendments banning gay marriages, ban pot, start
wars (it is WAY easier for a wartime President to be elected) trample
on the First Amendment, make their rich buddies richer, et. al. And
anyone who opposes them is a "Liberal" and that somehow is supposed to
discredit them.

I am of the theory of live and let live. As long as you are not
treading on my rights to do what I want, when I want, how I want
without hurting you or anyone else, what does it matter what the hell
I do? Why can't the Republicans be TRUE Conservatives instead of the
Christian Fundies they have become?


--EE--
Andrew in Alabama
2004-07-11 11:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Damb, ***@hotmail.com (Evil Elvis) do I have to 'splain
EVERYTHING to your dumn ass???
Post by Evil Elvis
I am of the theory of live and let live. As long as you are not
treading on my rights to do what I want, when I want, how I want
without hurting you or anyone else, what does it matter what the hell
I do? Why can't the Republicans be TRUE Conservatives instead of the
Christian Fundies they have become?
This is the best thing I have read today.

Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, whether it is practiced by the
Tabiban, the PLO, the supporters of Roy Moore, or the President of the
USA.


Andrew <-- is it ???? yet?

"Whatever happens in Unincorporated Clark County stays in
Unincorporated Clark County."
(Steve Harder-Kucera in alt.vacation.las-vegas)
Sr.
2004-07-11 15:49:25 UTC
Permalink
I am of the theory of live and let live. As long as you are not
Post by Andrew in Alabama
Post by Evil Elvis
treading on my rights to do what I want, when I want, how I want
without hurting you or anyone else, what does it matter what the hell
I do?
THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS WITH THIS COUNTRY TODAY!!! IF IT DON'T
BOTHER ME I DON'T CARE!!! WAKE UP PEOPLE-WE'S HEADIN' DOWN A WAY-RONG
ROAD!!! SOMETIMES PEOPLE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR SOMETHING SIMPLEE FOR
PRINCIPLE...
=SEN0UR TR0UT=
Post by Andrew in Alabama
EVERYTHING to your dumn ass???
Post by Evil Elvis
I am of the theory of live and let live. As long as you are not
treading on my rights to do what I want, when I want, how I want
without hurting you or anyone else, what does it matter what the hell
I do? Why can't the Republicans be TRUE Conservatives instead of the
Christian Fundies they have become?
This is the best thing I have read today.
Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, whether it is practiced by the
Tabiban, the PLO, the supporters of Roy Moore, or the President of the
USA.
Andrew <-- is it ???? yet?
"Whatever happens in Unincorporated Clark County stays in
Unincorporated Clark County."
(Steve Harder-Kucera in alt.vacation.las-vegas)
SMathai825
2004-07-11 17:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sr.
WAKE UP PEOPLE-WE'S HEADIN' DOWN A WAY-RONG
ROAD!!! SOMETIMES PEOPLE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR SOMETHING SIMPLEE FOR
PRINCIPLE...
=SEN0UR TR0UT=
I HEAR YA LOUD AND CLEAR TROUT! THAT'S WHY I PROMISE YOU THAT I WILL ONLY BE
SUPPORTING AND VOTING FOR THE CANDIDATE THAT PROMISES TO GET A CONSTITUTIONAL
AMENDMENT OUTLAWING THAT ABOMINATION BEFORE THE EYES OF GOD KNOWN AS 6:5
BLACKJACK!

---"I gave you a glittering Las Vegas and you've turned it into a skanky
Atlantic City!"--Homer Simpson
DocTCW
2004-07-11 18:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sr.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR SOMETHING SIMPLEE FOR
PRINCIPLE...
=SEN0UR TR0UT=
For once we agree. Like the right to free speech, the freedom of/from religion,
the right to choose between downtown or the strip, and the right to live the
life of sexual preference that God bestowed on you at birth.

Tom
BR Eagle
2004-07-11 18:48:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Post by Sr.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE HAVE TO STAND UP FOR SOMETHING SIMPLEE FOR
PRINCIPLE...
=SEN0UR TR0UT=
For once we agree. Like the right to free speech, the freedom of/from religion,
the right to choose between downtown or the strip, and the right to live the
life of sexual preference that God bestowed on you at birth.
Tom
Or even the definition of marriage. But not 6:5 blackjack.
ase
2004-07-11 19:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Very unhappy with the edwards selection but it won't save bush he is going
down big time.
DocTCW
2004-07-12 02:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by ase
Very unhappy with the edwards selection but it won't save bush he is going
down big time.
I think you are right. Edwards won't help Kerry, but I will say a prayer
tonight that Bush indeed goes down before the rest of the country is dragged
down further.

Tom
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 19:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew in Alabama
This is the best thing I have read today.
Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, whether it is practiced by the
Tabiban, the PLO, the supporters of Roy Moore, or the President of the
USA.
And fundamentalism is very, very, very oppressive. Just look at
what the Taliban did. Look at how bad the KKK "Christian" fundies
are. There's even fundie athiests for chrissakes. All fundies. All
oppressive.

Fundies are nothing but a bunch of scared people who lack
independent thought. And they are involved in governments worldwide.
Pretty scary.


--EE--
Generic
2004-07-11 20:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by Andrew in Alabama
Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, whether it is practiced by the
Tabiban, the PLO, the supporters of Roy Moore, or the President of the
USA.
And fundamentalism is very, very, very oppressive. Just look at
what the Taliban did. Look at how bad the KKK "Christian" fundies
are. There's even fundie athiests for chrissakes. All fundies. All
oppressive.
Fundies are nothing but a bunch of scared people who lack
independent thought. And they are involved in governments worldwide.
Pretty scary.
I used to think the left was accepting of diverse viewpoints...then attended
an ultra-left college...and was stunned by the arrogant bias even in
textbooks. In dramatic opposition to academic ideals there was often no
attempt to see other perspectives... Maybe 15% were Michael Moore types who
argued by presenting utopian positions as somehow logically justified. Ban
cars, ban meat, ban hatred, ban conservatives, censor anyone who dares
oppose abortion, supports religion or the military and eat tofu, smoke
'herbal medicines', and smell like patchouli.

Naively creating a new religion themselves...

-John "Never trust a partisan"

p.s. The mix of B.O., patchouli, and marijuana residue will gag a horse.
Evil Elvis
2004-07-12 03:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Generic
I used to think the left was accepting of diverse viewpoints...
Big mistake.
Post by Generic
then attended
an ultra-left college...
Wabash? :>)
Post by Generic
and was stunned by the arrogant bias even in
textbooks. In dramatic opposition to academic ideals there was often no
attempt to see other perspectives... Maybe 15% were Michael Moore types who
argued by presenting utopian positions as somehow logically justified. Ban
cars, ban meat, ban hatred, ban conservatives, censor anyone who dares
oppose abortion, supports religion or the military and eat tofu, smoke
'herbal medicines', and smell like patchouli.
A fundie is a fundie is a fundie, whether it be from the Left or the Right.
Post by Generic
Naively creating a new religion themselves...
Pretty wild, man.
Post by Generic
-John "Never trust a partisan"
p.s. The mix of B.O., patchouli, and marijuana residue will gag a horse.
LOL! Please, John. Not while I am eating my apple pie.


--EE--
BR Eagle
2004-07-11 11:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by Mike
Why is it that any time someone expresses any conservative opinion some
jackass has to start tieing them to Rush?
What is a "conservative opinion"?
Post by Mike
Mike
(conservative, but not a Limbaugh listener)
I have no problem with TRUE Conservatives; less govmt., less taxes,
etc., True Conservatives leave most people alone. Actually, IMO I
think that most TRUE Conservatives and most Classic Liberals
(Libertarians, i.e., me!) have a lot in common. What bugs me is that
Limbaugh claims he is a Conservative, which is a lie. He is a
Christian Fundamentalist. He hates free thought, freedom of choice
and anyone who differs from him or other Fundie idiots are quickly
labelled 'Liberal' and demonized.
Huh? It is obvious that you haven't listened to Rush. While I don't listen
very much anymore, what you said is just plain wrong. I prefer Neal Boortz,
you should check him out.
Post by Evil Elvis
I don't know if you have ever studied history or read the US
Constitution but there is something called the First Amendment. We
ALL have the right to worship, speak and believe the way we would like
to. For some reason these so-called "Conservatives" don't agree.
They have to pass Amendments banning gay marriages, ban pot, start
wars (it is WAY easier for a wartime President to be elected) trample
on the First Amendment, make their rich buddies richer, et. al.
Huh? Not ban gay marriages, define marriage as between a man and woman, as
it was until liberal judges changed it. Were is pot protected in the
Constitution? Which buddies are richer due to Bush? Other presidents have
done the same thing.

And
Post by Evil Elvis
anyone who opposes them is a "Liberal" and that somehow is supposed to
discredit them.
I am of the theory of live and let live. As long as you are not
treading on my rights to do what I want, when I want, how I want
without hurting you or anyone else, what does it matter what the hell
I do? Why can't the Republicans be TRUE Conservatives instead of the
Christian Fundies they have become?
I'm with you here. Why should I be forced to wear a seatbelt? Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did? Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security? Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die? Why can't Democrats be TRUE classical liberals, like Thomas
Jefferson and modern day libertarians?
EE==I challenge you to go www.cato.org home of a true Libertarian think
tank. Check out their policies. Let me know what you think.
Post by Evil Elvis
--EE--
DocTCW
2004-07-11 14:00:35 UTC
Permalink
BR asks---
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I be forced to wear a seatbelt?
Because too many healthy young people choose not to purchase health insurance
(can't say I blame them, it costs far too much), and whereas seatbelts and
motorcycle helmets have been proven to cut down on severe injuries, your
failure to wear a seatbelt could cost ME thousands and thousands of dollars and
stress an already overburdened health care system.
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did?
This is the argument of childless couples and couples with kids already out of
school for not paying their school taxes. Everyone has to pay their school
taxes because the education of "OUR" children is in the National Interest and
Welfare. Lower middle class families cannot afford to send their children to
private schools at $400 a month per child.
Post by BR Eagle
Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security?
I know SS has become "untouchable," but it IS a fantastic system that has made
it possible for senior citizens to SURVIVE. This is not medievil China where
older people were forced to live off their children. Letting workers who
currently pay SS taxes invest even 10% in the stock market would eventually gut
the system, and really goes against the very idea of current workers supporting
those retired. We need to fix it, not mess it up.
Post by BR Eagle
Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die?
Okay, let's just tax the UNSUCCESSFUL people. That makes a lot of sense. As for
inheritance taxes, there is room for reform, especially with family farms and
ranches (which are almost non-existent nowadays), but one of the tenets this
country was founded on was that nobility and prosperity had to be earned, not
passed down quite so easily from generation to generation like in Great
Britain. Besides, these taxes only affect the very richest in our society.
Post by BR Eagle
Why can't Democrats be TRUE classical liberals, like Thomas
Jefferson and modern day libertarians?
Democrats, myself included, love to claim Thomas Jefferson as the founder of
our party, but in truth, if he were alive today, he would surely be a
Republican (as much as it pains me to admit). He believed in minimalistic
government, state's rights, little to no taxes. Although he prosecuted the war
against the Barbary Coast states ("On the shores of Tripoli"), he did not
believe in a standing federal military. He was extremely conflicted over
slavery. I don't think I would like him very much.

Tom
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-11 15:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Because too many healthy young people choose not to purchase health insurance
(can't say I blame them, it costs far too much), and whereas seatbelts and
motorcycle helmets have been proven to cut down on severe injuries, your
failure to wear a seatbelt could cost ME thousands and thousands of dollars and
stress an already overburdened health care system.
There are a couple very interesting studies that indicate around 40% of
health expenditures are related to things that are easily avoided (car wrecks,
drugs/Alcoholism, teen pregnancies, over eating, cigarettes, etc.).
I have always though that health insurance should be underwritten like car
insurance. THose who maintain a healthy lifestyle should pay less. And I
thought that when I weighed 260. Of course that ain't gonna happen.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did?
This is the argument of childless couples and couples with kids already out of
school for not paying their school taxes. Everyone has to pay their school
taxes because the education of "OUR" children is in the National Interest and
Welfare. Lower middle class families cannot afford to send their children to
private schools at $400 a month per child.
They can and do if it is important enough. Vouchers, my man. vouchers.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security?
I know SS has become "untouchable," but it IS a fantastic system that has made
it possible for senior citizens to SURVIVE. This is not medievil China where
older people were forced to live off their children. Letting workers who
currently pay SS taxes invest even 10% in the stock market would eventually gut
the system, and really goes against the very idea of current workers supporting
those retired. We need to fix it, not mess it up.
The system is already gutted. It goes bankrupt (under any non-governmental
definition) in about 10-15 years when the taxes coming in no longer are
greater than the benefits going out. At that time the "surplus" will kick in.
The surplus is currently in government bonds that will have to be paid back
from somewhere.. wiht interest. I figured it up a couple of years ago using
the SSA's own interest rate figures and I figured that the $1 I paid in FICA
taxes in 2001 will result in a $2.47 charge to pay it "back" when I turn 67 (I
can't draw SS until then). The money will have to come from the general fund,
cuts elsewhere, inflation as they print money or tax increases. And all of
this, despite protestations to the contrary, has absolutely nothing to do with
any deficits we run in the meantime.
SS is a ponzi scheme, and has been since at least the mid-80s.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die?
Okay, let's just tax the UNSUCCESSFUL people. That makes a lot of sense. As for
inheritance taxes, there is room for reform, especially with family farms and
ranches (which are almost non-existent nowadays), but one of the tenets this
country was founded on was that nobility and prosperity had to be earned, not
passed down quite so easily from generation to generation like in Great
Britain. Besides, these taxes only affect the very richest in our society.
Post by BR Eagle
Why can't Democrats be TRUE classical liberals, like Thomas
Jefferson and modern day libertarians?
Democrats, myself included, love to claim Thomas Jefferson as the founder of
our party, but in truth, if he were alive today, he would surely be a
Republican (as much as it pains me to admit). He believed in minimalistic
government, state's rights, little to no taxes. Although he prosecuted the war
against the Barbary Coast states ("On the shores of Tripoli"), he did not
believe in a standing federal military. He was extremely conflicted over
slavery. I don't think I would like him very much.
Tom
--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
DocTCW
2004-07-11 18:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Kurt writes---
Post by Kurt Ullman
have always though that health insurance should be underwritten like car
insurance. THose who maintain a healthy lifestyle should pay less.
This is how it is run already, Kurt. Just try buying health insurance not
provided by an employer. They look you over with a fine toothed comb. Family
history of diabetes--forget it. Want to smoke--got to pay tons more.
Post by Kurt Ullman
Vouchers, my man. vouchers.
Vouchers will be the ruin of our already troubled public school system. Most
proposals that I have read cover maybe $2000 a year, which only benefits the
well off, and does nothing for families already struggling from paycheck to
paycheck.
Post by Kurt Ullman
The system is already gutted.
Your point is well made, but there is still time to fix it. Life expectancy has
dramatically climbed since the 1930's. I say that there should be a gradual
increase in the age one starts receiving SS up to 70.

Tom
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-11 19:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Your point is well made, but there is still time to fix it. Life expectancy has
dramatically climbed since the 1930's. I say that there should be a gradual
increase in the age one starts receiving SS up to 70.
That and letting people invest a part of it. Those of my generation (I am
50) are going to get a negative annual rate of return on our "investment". The
really interesting thing is that many minorities have been getting a negative
return on investment for the last 20 years because of their relatively shorter
life spans. It is hard to figure out how anyone could do much worse.
The really interesting study I read a few years ago (and I could actually
agree to) would be to index the top wage where SS is taken out to inflation.
That hasn't been changed for awhile (possibly the 80s but don't quote me).
Just to keep the $60,600 cap the same in spending equivalence since '84 would
require the ceiling to go to $106,000.
To keep SS on the same basic footing as it was when it was started,
you would need to increase the age one starts receiving into the mid-70s. When
SS was started the life expectancy was the same as the retirement age. Most
people probably weren't expected to live long enough to collect.

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
DocTCW
2004-07-12 02:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
To keep SS on the same basic footing as it was when it was started,
you would need to increase the age one starts receiving into the mid-70s.
Even THAT wouldn't be so terrible.

Tom
Evil Elvis
2004-07-12 03:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Vouchers will be the ruin of our already troubled public school system. Most
proposals that I have read cover maybe $2000 a year, which only benefits the
well off, and does nothing for families already struggling from paycheck to
paycheck.
Not to mention it will DOUBLE TAX the poor, middle and rich
classes. No matter what.


--EE--
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 03:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
Vouchers will be the ruin of our already troubled public school system. Most
proposals that I have read cover maybe $2000 a year, which only benefits the
well off, and does nothing for families already struggling from paycheck to
paycheck.
If students/families paid, even a little for school, they would not take if
for granted. Too many students are in school b/c they have to be there, not
to get an education. They often interfere with those in school for an
education. If they were paying for it, things would be different. Compare
a government housing project with a home purchased thru Habit for Humanity.
Ownership works. Capitalism, incentives and private property. (kind of
like Michael Savage's 'language, border, culture')
Post by Evil Elvis
Not to mention it will DOUBLE TAX the poor, middle and rich
classes. No matter what.
What do you mean?
I'm all for providing INCENTIVES to get people to do something constructive
(get an education, work longer and harder). I have no problem with
government subsidizing education, (except some of the crazy studies that
have little value), but if student shares in paying for education, he/she
will value it more.
Pat O'Connell
2004-07-12 05:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
Vouchers will be the ruin of our already troubled public school system.
Most
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
proposals that I have read cover maybe $2000 a year, which only benefits
the
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
well off, and does nothing for families already struggling from paycheck
to
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
paycheck.
I'm thoroughly convinced that vouchers won't help at all, but removal of
tenure might.
Post by BR Eagle
If students/families paid, even a little for school, they would not take if
for granted. Too many students are in school b/c they have to be there, not
to get an education. They often interfere with those in school for an
education. If they were paying for it, things would be different.
Correct--many kids would have to drop out of school because the parents
cannot afford the tuition, or refuse to pay for it (common thought among
some people [maybe you haven't met such people, but I have and EE
probably has]: "I dropped out at eighth grade in 1960 and I'm doing
OK."). Now what happens to the kids?
Post by BR Eagle
Compare
a government housing project with a home purchased thru Habit for Humanity.
Ownership works.
If one can afford that down payment. Not everyone can.
Post by BR Eagle
Post by Evil Elvis
Not to mention it will DOUBLE TAX the poor, middle and rich
classes. No matter what.
What do you mean?
I'm all for providing INCENTIVES to get people to do something constructive
(get an education, work longer and harder).
Such as?
Post by BR Eagle
I have no problem with
government subsidizing education, (except some of the crazy studies that
have little value),
Who decides what is crazy and has little value? How about the student
when he/she chooses classes?
Post by BR Eagle
but if student shares in paying for education, he/she
will value it more.
This why all my kids have paid for their own tuition beyond high school.
--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-12 12:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat O'Connell
If one can afford that down payment. Not everyone can.
H for H pretty much everybody can since most of the down is "sweat equity"
that they get by participating in the building.


--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 14:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat O'Connell
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
Vouchers will be the ruin of our already troubled public school system.
Most proposals that I have read cover maybe $2000 a year, which only
benefits
Post by Pat O'Connell
the well off, and does nothing for families already struggling from
paycheck to
Post by Pat O'Connell
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by DocTCW
paycheck.
I'm thoroughly convinced that vouchers won't help at all, but removal of
tenure might.
As a teacher I have mixed emotions about tenure. Sometimes administrators
are too lazy (or stupid) to take the necessary steps to remove a teacher who
is tenured. It is tedious, but it can be done. Some bad teachers can do
what we call a 'dog and puppy show' when being observed and make
administrators think they are doing a good job. Teachers need protection
from same (lazy and/or stupid) administrators who would fire them on a whim,
to replace them with school board memeber's niece, or just b/c they don't
like them. I've seen many more bad administrators (principals and
superintendents) in my career than good ones.
Vouchers would let parents choose where their children go to school, and I
can't see how choice is bad. Public schools would need to 'compete' and be
allowed to do things that would allow them to compete with each other and
private schools.
Post by Pat O'Connell
If students/families paid, even a little for school, they would not take if
for granted. Too many students are in school b/c they have to be there, not
to get an education. They often interfere with those in school for an
education. If they were paying for it, things would be different.
Correct--many kids would have to drop out of school because the parents
cannot afford the tuition, or refuse to pay for it (common thought among
some people [maybe you haven't met such people, but I have and EE
probably has]: "I dropped out at eighth grade in 1960 and I'm doing
OK."). Now what happens to the kids?
Funny how the ones who complain about not being able to afford stuff at
school are the same ones that always have money for snacks, and often wear
designer clothes. It's about making choices, and some of those are tough.
As for those who really can't afford tuition, that is where private
charities could fill the void (Gates foundation, local groups, etc.).
As for the dropouts, this would create a market for adult education. Ok,
drop out at 15, but when they get to age 24 and see how tough it is, they
would be ready, and much more serious about getting an education. All my
friends to teach adult ed. comment on how motiviated the students are.
Post by Pat O'Connell
Compare
a government housing project with a home purchased thru Habit for Humanity.
Ownership works.
If one can afford that down payment. Not everyone can.
Kurt answered that well, and again it is about make choices and sacrifices.
Look at the poor in this country. Most have a car, color tv, microwave
oven. Many have cable. I'm not saying its easy, but it is possible.
Post by Pat O'Connell
Post by Evil Elvis
Not to mention it will DOUBLE TAX the poor, middle and rich
classes. No matter what.
What do you mean?
I'm all for providing INCENTIVES to get people to do something constructive
(get an education, work longer and harder).
Such as?
Tax policy. This is how Washington controls our lives.
Post by Pat O'Connell
I have no problem with
government subsidizing education, (except some of the crazy studies that
have little value),
Who decides what is crazy and has little value? How about the student
when he/she chooses classes?
This is a problem. Everyone has different values. I think students need
job skills first, then they can choose classes for their educational value.
Post by Pat O'Connell
but if student shares in paying for education, he/she
will value it more.
This why all my kids have paid for their own tuition beyond high school.
And how has that worked out? Why wouldn't work (on a smaller level) on
elementary and secondary education?
Post by Pat O'Connell
--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Evil Elvis
2004-07-12 03:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
There are a couple very interesting studies that indicate around 40% of
health expenditures are related to things that are easily avoided (car wrecks,
drugs/Alcoholism, teen pregnancies, over eating, cigarettes, etc.).
I have always though that health insurance should be underwritten like car
insurance. THose who maintain a healthy lifestyle should pay less. And I
thought that when I weighed 260.
Yikes!
Post by Kurt Ullman
Of course that ain't gonna happen.
Not in this lifetime.
Post by Kurt Ullman
They can and do if it is important enough. Vouchers, my man. vouchers.
The voucher system (scam) will destroy education much like the HMO
system (scam) has destroyed medicine.


--EE--
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-12 12:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
The voucher system (scam) will destroy education much like the HMO
system (scam) has destroyed medicine.
Interesting paralells. The largest reason for the HMO scam was that we
divorced the payor of health insurance (the employer) from the user of health
insurance (you & me.. well you me and others). So, I want to use as much of
something I ain't paying for as I can, whil e the employer wants to pay as
little for something it ain't using as it can. So, you get the insurance
companies trying to please THEIR customers (for better or worse the employers)
by coming up with cost containment. The system also weds the consumer to the
few options offered.
For those of you playing at home, if you are having problems with health
insurance, don't pester the insurance company. The real way impact on change
is to make your HR dept's life miserable. They are the ones that the insurance
companies kowtow to.
Large the same with the schools, the parents/consumers are fairly far down
the list of customers, especially those attached to failing schools. But they
don't have a lot of options, so they don't have a lot of pull. Whatcha gonna
do.. go to a PRIVATE school? giggle. .
So, change both systems so the people who are using the system actually
have some way to vote with their feet and you might see rapid changes in
both..

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
BR Eagle
2004-07-11 15:45:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
BR asks---
Why should I be forced to wear a seatbelt?
Because too many healthy young people choose not to purchase health insurance
(can't say I blame them, it costs far too much), and whereas seatbelts and
motorcycle helmets have been proven to cut down on severe injuries, your
failure to wear a seatbelt could cost ME thousands and thousands of dollars and
stress an already overburdened health care system.
When has my not wearing my seatbelt cost YOU anything? Even the costs you
talk about, when divided amongst us are very small. What about the fact that
you save on electricty, phone, sewer, cable, etc. b/c of living in society?
Freedom has a cost, and freedom not to wear seatbelts or motorcyle helmets
are worth the cost. I value freedom more than the few dollars it may cost.
Of course we make the decision not to purchase health insurance easy, b/c
people know they will get taken care w/o it.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did?
This is the argument of childless couples and couples with kids already out of
school for not paying their school taxes. Everyone has to pay their school
taxes because the education of "OUR" children is in the National Interest and
Welfare. Lower middle class families cannot afford to send their children to
private schools at $400 a month per child.
Childless couples benefit from schools, especially good schools. However,
even as a public school teacher, free public education is not a great idea.
Kids and parents place no value (ok some) b/c it is free, but if they were
paying even $50 a month, they'd be investing in it and taking it more
seriously. This is why private schools outperform public schools.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security?
I know SS has become "untouchable," but it IS a fantastic system that has made
it possible for senior citizens to SURVIVE. This is not medievil China where
older people were forced to live off their children. Letting workers who
currently pay SS taxes invest even 10% in the stock market would eventually gut
the system, and really goes against the very idea of current workers supporting
those retired. We need to fix it, not mess it up.
How did this nation survive for 150 years without it? It takes away
incentive to save (well now it doesn't, since most of us know not to count
on it when we reach retirement age). Why shouldn't my mom be MY
responsibility in her old age, instead of yours? Private charities would be
a much better way of 'helping' the poor and elderly. Eliminate social
security.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die?
Okay, let's just tax the UNSUCCESSFUL people. That makes a lot of sense. As for
inheritance taxes, there is room for reform, especially with family farms and
ranches (which are almost non-existent nowadays), but one of the tenets this
country was founded on was that nobility and prosperity had to be earned, not
passed down quite so easily from generation to generation like in Great
Britain. Besides, these taxes only affect the very richest in our society.
Understand incentives matter. If I work extra this week Uncle Sam is gonna
take more (maybe even a higher percentage of what I earn) out of my check.
Nah, I'll just stay home and watch tv. No incentive to work harder, so I
become less productive. We need to create a system where there is an
incentive for productive people to be more productive, and non productive
people to be productive.
If I work all my life and build whatever fortune, shouldn't I, not the
government, decide where that money goes? Again freedom trumps fear of
nobility.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why can't Democrats be TRUE classical liberals, like Thomas
Jefferson and modern day libertarians?
Democrats, myself included, love to claim Thomas Jefferson as the founder of
our party, but in truth, if he were alive today, he would surely be a
Republican (as much as it pains me to admit). He believed in minimalistic
government, state's rights, little to no taxes. Although he prosecuted the war
against the Barbary Coast states ("On the shores of Tripoli"), he did not
believe in a standing federal military. He was extremely conflicted over
slavery. I don't think I would like him very much.
Thank you. I think I'd like him. He also thought the Louisiana purchase
was unconstitutional, but did it anyway. Pragmatic. Thats good, real good
in my book.
Post by DocTCW
Tom
Nice argument, no name calling. I like that.
DocTCW
2004-07-11 18:56:16 UTC
Permalink
BR writes---
Post by BR Eagle
When has my not wearing my seatbelt cost YOU anything?
We all pay hospital district taxes, don't we? In my city there are two places
for serious auto accidents and head injuries to go, the county hospital and the
military bases. Both of these places are supported by MY dollars, and we are
not talking peanuts---probably something in the range of an extra trip to Vegas
each year.
Post by BR Eagle
I value freedom more than the few dollars it may cost.
I value freedom, but when it comes at other people's expense, such as crying
"fire" in a crowded theater, your freedom can be limited.
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-11 19:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
BR writes---
Post by BR Eagle
When has my not wearing my seatbelt cost YOU anything?
We all pay hospital district taxes, don't we? In my city there are two places
for serious auto accidents and head injuries to go, the county hospital and the
military bases. Both of these places are supported by MY dollars, and we are
not talking peanuts---probably something in the range of an extra trip to Vegas
each year.
Of course the hospital costs are only a small part of the costs. You have
long-term care costs, probably welfare costs related to the family going on
welfare or needing some sort of assistance, you have on going rehab costs even
afterwards. Even so, why pay them for something that is easily avoided. If the
person wants to run around without a helmet, then he can pay the cost.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
I value freedom more than the few dollars it may cost.
I value freedom, but when it comes at other people's expense, such as crying
"fire" in a crowded theater, your freedom can be limited.
Like wearing a seat belt.

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
SMathai825
2004-07-11 22:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
Like wearing a seat belt.
What's interesting about this law is that it wasn't a paternalistic law (as
most people think) that the state govt.'s decided would be a good idea to
protect it's citizens (that just happens to be a by-product). It came about
because the car-insurance companies figured out that it was costing 'em a ton
more in claims for folks that got into car crashes that weren't wearin' their
belts. So they lobbied the state (at least here in Texas) to put into place the
seat-belt law. Big-business already runs this country sometimes to the benefit
of our fellow citizens (I for one having experienced a near-death experience of
almost going thru the windshield except for the grace of having my seat -belt
on because of some fukin' idiot who rammed into me while I was sittin' at a
stop-lite) but that's usually the exception and not the rule.

---"I gave you a glittering Las Vegas and you've turned it into a skanky
Atlantic City!"--Homer Simpson
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-11 23:02:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by SMathai825
Post by Kurt Ullman
Like wearing a seat belt.
What's interesting about this law is that it wasn't a paternalistic law (as
most people think) that the state govt.'s decided would be a good idea to
protect it's citizens (that just happens to be a by-product). It came about
because the car-insurance companies figured out that it was costing 'em a ton
more in claims for folks that got into car crashes that weren't wearin' their
belts. So they lobbied the state (at least here in Texas) to put into place the
seat-belt law. Big-business already runs this country sometimes to the benefit
of our fellow citizens (I for one having experienced a near-death experience of
almost going thru the windshield except for the grace of having my seat -belt
on because of some fukin' idiot who rammed into me while I was sittin' at a
stop-lite) but that's usually the exception and not the rule.
Don't know about the timing in Texas, but for most of the country this
came from the feds and car companies, actually. The reason for this was that
the Feds were pushing for airbags and the Car Companies got them to say
airbags wouldn;t be mandatory if X number of states passed mandatory seatbelt
laws.
Two sorta interesting sidelights. They never got enough states, but because
of demand from buyers, pretty much everybody was including airbags as standard
equipment two model years before it was mandatory. The other thing is that, if
you look at the testimony given when airbags were mandated, they were mandated
SOLELY as a protection for those who refused to wear seatbelts. Sorta ironic
given what happened next.
The only law that COngress really passes with any regularity is the law
of unintended consequences...

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
DocTCW
2004-07-12 02:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
why pay them for something that is easily avoided. If the
person wants to run around without a helmet, then he can pay the cost.
If it were only that easy to accomplish. Squeezing money out of a vegetable is
sort of difficult.

On my first night as an intern we had a guy come in the ER with a head injury
from a motorcycle injury. When I left, a year later, he was still unconscious
in the ICU. I wonder what his cost to the tax payors of that county were.

Tom
Evil Elvis
2004-07-12 03:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
When has my not wearing my seatbelt cost YOU anything?
Tell that to the car insurance (racket) companies. It's their
fault. So much for private corporations having your best interest in
mind. They are after only one thing - MONEY!
Post by BR Eagle
Childless couples benefit from schools, especially good schools. However,
even as a public school teacher, free public education is not a great idea.
Kids and parents place no value (ok some) b/c it is free, but if they were
paying even $50 a month, they'd be investing in it and taking it more
seriously. This is why private schools outperform public schools.
Let me get this straight: You want less taxes but you want to
CHARGE for school? Talk about a double negative.
Post by BR Eagle
How did this nation survive for 150 years without it?
The Great Depression ring a bell?
Post by BR Eagle
Eliminate social security.
Never.
Post by BR Eagle
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die?
Okay, let's just tax the UNSUCCESSFUL people. That makes a lot of sense.
As for
Post by DocTCW
inheritance taxes, there is room for reform, especially with family farms
and
Post by DocTCW
ranches (which are almost non-existent nowadays), but one of the tenets
this
Post by DocTCW
country was founded on was that nobility and prosperity had to be earned,
not
Post by DocTCW
passed down quite so easily from generation to generation like in Great
Britain. Besides, these taxes only affect the very richest in our society.
Understand incentives matter. If I work extra this week Uncle Sam is gonna
take more (maybe even a higher percentage of what I earn) out of my check.
Nah, I'll just stay home and watch tv. No incentive to work harder, so I
become less productive. We need to create a system where there is an
incentive for productive people to be more productive, and non productive
people to be productive.
If I work all my life and build whatever fortune, shouldn't I, not the
government, decide where that money goes? Again freedom trumps fear of
nobility.
Stop driving on public roads stop using public goods & services.
Post by BR Eagle
Nice argument, no name calling. I like that.
Poopy Pants! :>)


--EE--
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 03:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
When has my not wearing my seatbelt cost YOU anything?
Tell that to the car insurance (racket) companies. It's their
fault. So much for private corporations having your best interest in
mind. They are after only one thing - MONEY!
But to get that money they must offer something in return. My buddy says
he'd love to sell insurance, cause all they sell is 'air'.
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
Childless couples benefit from schools, especially good schools.
However,
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
even as a public school teacher, free public education is not a great idea.
Kids and parents place no value (ok some) b/c it is free, but if they were
paying even $50 a month, they'd be investing in it and taking it more
seriously. This is why private schools outperform public schools.
Let me get this straight: You want less taxes but you want to
CHARGE for school? Talk about a double negative.
Double negative? Take my tax savings and invest them in my children's
educations.
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
How did this nation survive for 150 years without it?
The Great Depression ring a bell?
Even 150 years before the Great Depression the nation survived. Are you
saying the Great Depression was caused b/c we didn't have social security?
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
Eliminate social security.
Never.
Never say never.
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die?
Okay, let's just tax the UNSUCCESSFUL people. That makes a lot of sense.
As for
Post by DocTCW
inheritance taxes, there is room for reform, especially with family farms
and
Post by DocTCW
ranches (which are almost non-existent nowadays), but one of the tenets
this
Post by DocTCW
country was founded on was that nobility and prosperity had to be earned,
not
Post by DocTCW
passed down quite so easily from generation to generation like in Great
Britain. Besides, these taxes only affect the very richest in our society.
Understand incentives matter. If I work extra this week Uncle Sam is gonna
take more (maybe even a higher percentage of what I earn) out of my check.
Nah, I'll just stay home and watch tv. No incentive to work harder, so I
become less productive. We need to create a system where there is an
incentive for productive people to be more productive, and non productive
people to be productive.
If I work all my life and build whatever fortune, shouldn't I, not the
government, decide where that money goes? Again freedom trumps fear of
nobility.
Stop driving on public roads stop using public goods & services.
Some goods must be provided by government. (National Defense, levees, for
example). As for roads, we could go to a private system of roads
(turnpikes), but our present system works. We pay taxes on gasoline to use
the roads. Increasing user fees in a good idea.
BTW, I said limited government, no anarchy.
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
Nice argument, no name calling. I like that.
Poopy Pants! :>)
I know you are, but what am I?
:-)
DocTCW
2004-07-12 13:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
My buddy says
he'd love to sell insurance, cause all they sell is 'air'.
That's right. You win if you lose and you lose if you win. But you can't, or
shouldn't live without it.

Tom
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 19:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
BR asks---
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did?
This is the argument of childless couples and couples with kids already out of
school for not paying their school taxes. Everyone has to pay their school
taxes because the education of "OUR" children is in the National Interest and
Welfare. Lower middle class families cannot afford to send their children to
private schools at $400 a month per child.
God, I LOVE it when people ask the "why should I pay taxes for
schools" question.

I have a question for them: Were you making the same argument when
our citizens paid their taxes so YOU could go to school?

I thought so.

Just for the record, it costs LESS money to put a kid through
school than it would to put that same kid in prison. It is an
investment. Someone who is EDUCATED is more likely to turn out to be
a better citizen, ergo, start their own business, be better workers,
be better parents, etc. And those people who are educated pay taxes.
Most poor and uneducated people pay LESS or NO TAXES at all and
actually end up costing taxpayers MORE money because they are on
welfare or in prison.

I hope and pray to God that this voucher ponzi SCAM never sees the
light of day. It would be an even worse disaster than the HMO ponzi
SCAM! God help us.
Post by DocTCW
Post by BR Eagle
Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security?
I know SS has become "untouchable," but it IS a fantastic system that has made
it possible for senior citizens to SURVIVE. This is not medievil China where
older people were forced to live off their children. Letting workers who
currently pay SS taxes invest even 10% in the stock market would eventually gut
the system, and really goes against the very idea of current workers supporting
those retired. We need to fix it, not mess it up.
These guys just love to throw the baby out with the bathwater,
don't they?

<snip great rebuttal>


--EE--
Toad The Dead Vegan
2004-07-11 16:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Were is pot protected in the
Constitution?
Duh!

In the part that says any powers not delineated in the document revert
to the states and the people. Several states have medical marijuana
laws, including Nevada. The constitution gives Nevada the right to make
laws like that. But General Asscroft has decided that the Constitution
is just a piece of toilet paper to be shredded and flushed at will, so
he goes after people using medical marijuana in the states that allow
its use.
Post by BR Eagle
Which buddies are richer due to Bush?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ever hear of Enron? It took 3 years to prosecute Ken Lay, friend of GW,
huge Repub contributor, chairman of a corporation that ripped off
California and Nevada with the assent of FERC, the Bush administration
energy regulatory board.

How about Halliburton? Cheney's old corporation that's charging for
empty truck runs to nowhere in Iraq, overcharging for everything
imaginable, and getting 40 of their employees killed in their rlentless
hunt for oil dollars handed to them by Bush on a silver no-bid platter.
Post by BR Eagle
Other presidents have
done the same thing.
Oh, so that makes it ok? No, it makes him just as bad if not worse than
other Presidents.
Post by BR Eagle
And
Post by Evil Elvis
anyone who opposes them is a "Liberal" and that somehow is supposed to
discredit them.
I am of the theory of live and let live. As long as you are not
treading on my rights to do what I want, when I want, how I want
without hurting you or anyone else, what does it matter what the hell
I do? Why can't the Republicans be TRUE Conservatives instead of the
Christian Fundies they have become?
I'm with you here. Why should I be forced to wear a seatbelt? Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did? Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security? Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die? Why can't Democrats be TRUE classical liberals, like Thomas
Jefferson and modern day libertarians?
EE==I challenge you to go www.cato.org home of a true Libertarian think
tank. Check out their policies. Let me know what you think.
Whew, I thought you were one of the bug-eyes for a moment. Glad to know
you do have your head on straight.

Toad

_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 19:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Huh? It is obvious that you haven't listened to Rush.
He is on Monday thru Friday on 770 KKOB AM. I sometimes listen to
him because it's good to listen to what the 'other side' has to say.
So far it's the same as it ever was: blame Liberals for all your ills.
It will be the same crap tomorrow and next year.
Post by BR Eagle
While I don't listen
very much anymore, what you said is just plain wrong.
Liten to him today. Come back next month. It will be the same
thing: blame Liberals.
Post by BR Eagle
I prefer Neal Boortz,
you should check him out.
I will do that.
Post by BR Eagle
Huh? Not ban gay marriages, define marriage as between a man and woman,
Why should one person define marriage?
Post by BR Eagle
as it was until liberal judges changed it.
What is wrong with 2 consenting homosexual adults of age wanting to
get married so they can have the same benefits as we heterosexuals
have? Where are their rights?
Post by BR Eagle
Were is pot protected in the
Constitution?
Where is 'typing on the computer' in the Constitution? Does
someting have to be in the Constitution in order for you to do
something?
Post by BR Eagle
Which buddies are richer due to Bush?
Oil companies, gas companies, energy companies, Ken Lay,
Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Mircosoft..... shall I go on?
Post by BR Eagle
Other presidents have
done the same thing.
So what?! Does that make it right for THIS President to do it? Is
it okay for me to run a red light because other people have done the
same thing? Where does it end?
Post by BR Eagle
I'm with you here.
Thank God!
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I be forced to wear a seatbelt?
Why should you drive on the right side of the road?
Post by BR Eagle
Why should I
be 'forced' to pay for government programs I don't believe, that could be
handled in the private sectors with donations from those who did? Why be
forced to participate in the ponzi scheme called social security? Why should
you tax someone because they have been succesful, and tax them again when
they die? Why can't Democrats be TRUE classical liberals, like Thomas
Jefferson and modern day libertarians?
Read Doc's comments on these questions.
Post by BR Eagle
EE==I challenge you to go www.cato.org home of a true Libertarian think
tank. Check out their policies. Let me know what you think.
Okay. I will do it.


--EE--
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 01:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Well, SOMEBODY'S got to think for them!


--EE--
BR Eagle
2004-07-11 03:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Well, SOMEBODY'S got to think for them!
Think is the key word.
Less government is better government, I think even you EE would agree on
that. I just prefer to keep the government out of my pocket (and yours)
more than I worry about all the 'social' issues. I can't stand the far
right, but Johnson's Great Society failed. Individuals (including you) know
better how to spend their money that the government. But the left thinks the
money belongs to the government...as in "tax cuts cost money." UGH! I hear
liberals who want to 'level the playing field', yet many of them are the
ones who came from nothing and made something out of themselves (i.e. Bill
Clinton). To say the government must help those who are disadvantage, is a
crock. Too many people are self made. I find it hypocritical of those who
have worked hard become successful say to others, they can't be succesful
without government help. Incentives not handouts work, or as Garth Brooks
said "we don't reach for hand outs, we reach for those who are down." (Maybe
you should get a copy of "American Honky Tonk Bar Association" and listen to
the words!
Handouts are handled much better in the private sector. As for the war,
don't you think it would be better to err on the side of caution than wait
for another attack?
off soap box.
Russell Patterson
2004-07-11 05:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Too many people are self made
Wrong! Not enough! The problem is, too many want the government to
make them more wealthy.

respond here or email responses to cruzincat"deletethis"@cruzincat.com
BR Eagle
2004-07-11 05:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russell Patterson
Post by BR Eagle
Too many people are self made
Wrong! Not enough! The problem is, too many want the government to
make them more wealthy.
I stand corrected. delete Too
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 19:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Less government is better government, I think even you EE would agree on
that.
You act like the government is some foreign entity. WE are the
government! Too bad our POLITICIANS have been taken over by
corporations and special interest groups who, in turn pass laws that
thwart government, i.e., US!
Post by BR Eagle
I just prefer to keep the government out of my pocket (and yours)
more than I worry about all the 'social' issues.
Nothing wrong with that. But we do live in a society and you
really cannot sit there and not worry about social issues. They
affect us ALL.
Post by BR Eagle
I can't stand the far
right, but Johnson's Great Society failed. Individuals (including you) know
better how to spend their money that the government.
Once again, the PEOPLE are the government. Not the fundies,
businesses, etc. We need to get back to the way it was.
Post by BR Eagle
But the left thinks the
money belongs to the government...as in "tax cuts cost money." UGH!
Due to the tax cut we are now in debt to the Fed over a hundred
billion dollars. Can you imagine the interest on that?
Post by BR Eagle
I hear
liberals who want to 'level the playing field', yet many of them are the
ones who came from nothing and made something out of themselves (i.e. Bill
Clinton).
With the help of others. No man is an island unto his own (did I
butcher that phrase?).
Post by BR Eagle
To say the government must help those who are disadvantage, is a
crock.
Should we then ignore the homeless? See no evil? You know,
there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Post by BR Eagle
Too many people are self made. I find it hypocritical of those who
have worked hard become successful say to others, they can't be succesful
without government help.
Did you go to public school, drive on public roads, call the cops
or the fire department, get a student loan, go to a public college?
That's government help.
Post by BR Eagle
Incentives not handouts work, or as Garth Brooks
said "we don't reach for hand outs, we reach for those who are down." (Maybe
you should get a copy of "American Honky Tonk Bar Association" and listen to
the words!
I'll check it out.
Post by BR Eagle
Handouts are handled much better in the private sector.
We don't need handouts. We need investments.
Post by BR Eagle
As for the war,
don't you think it would be better to err on the side of caution than wait
for another attack?
off soap box.
No, I do not. Just imagine the consequences that are going to
happen further down the road for our invasion of Iraq. Every time you
throw a stone in the water it always makes a ripple.


--EE--
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-12 23:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by Dr.Z
The Hannity-Limbaugh Syndrome is alive and whimpering on AVLV.
Well, SOMEBODY'S got to think for them!
Think is the key word.
Less government is better government, I think even you EE would agree on
that. I just prefer to keep the government out of my pocket (and yours)
more than I worry about all the 'social' issues. I can't stand the far
right, but Johnson's Great Society failed. Individuals (including you) know
better how to spend their money that the government. But the left thinks the
money belongs to the government...as in "tax cuts cost money." UGH! I hear
liberals who want to 'level the playing field', yet many of them are the
ones who came from nothing and made something out of themselves (i.e. Bill
Clinton). To say the government must help those who are disadvantage, is a
crock. Too many people are self made. I find it hypocritical of those who
have worked hard become successful say to others, they can't be succesful
without government help. Incentives not handouts work, or as Garth Brooks
said "we don't reach for hand outs, we reach for those who are down." (Maybe
you should get a copy of "American Honky Tonk Bar Association" and listen to
the words!
Handouts are handled much better in the private sector. As for the war,
don't you think it would be better to err on the side of caution than wait
for another attack?
There is no proof at all that Saddam was a threat. Guess who gets to pay
for all the billions that are being spent in Iraq while many cities here
in the states are being forced to cut first-responders? Further, while
Bush was attacking Iraq, his friends in Pakistan were doing the same
thing Bush accused Saddam of doing, selling WMD to our enemies.
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-13 00:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shawn Hearn
There is no proof at all that Saddam was a threat. Guess who gets to pay
for all the billions that are being spent in Iraq while many cities here
in the states are being forced to cut first-responders?
First responders are a local function and what GW does in DC has little
to do with that.

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-13 02:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
Post by Shawn Hearn
There is no proof at all that Saddam was a threat. Guess who gets to pay
for all the billions that are being spent in Iraq while many cities here
in the states are being forced to cut first-responders?
First responders are a local function and what GW does in DC has little
to do with that.
Wrong. Clinton provided a budget for 100,000 police officers. The
Republicans refused to renew that element of the budget after Bush
got into office. A lot of local first responder expenditures are
supported by federal grants in major cities.
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 08:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Question: Could they keep their hands off each other?
What are you implying?


--EE--
DocTCW
2004-07-11 13:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
Question: Could they keep their hands off each other?
What are you implying?
He is referring to a skit on late night talk TV (? Leno) which featured the two
of them holding hands, hugging, and smiling at each other like lovers. It was
really funny.

Tom
Generic
2004-07-11 16:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Post by Evil Elvis
Post by BR Eagle
Question: Could they keep their hands off each other?
What are you implying?
He is referring to a skit on late night talk TV (? Leno) which featured the two
of them holding hands, hugging, and smiling at each other like lovers. It was
really funny.
Before that there was a story about it on the Drudgereport. Drudge had ~6
photos of them hugging and whatnot.

-John
John5240
2004-07-11 23:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Generic
Before that there was a story about it on the Drudgereport. Drudge had ~6
photos of them hugging and whatnot.
I saw that drudge story. I would guess that edwards must hate that
touchy-feeley crap but is afraid to say anything to kerry.
Evil Elvis
2004-07-12 03:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Generic
Before that there was a story about it on the Drudgereport.
Oh, now THAT'S a beacon of truth - NOT!!!!!
Post by Generic
Drudge had ~6
photos of them hugging and whatnot.
Strange. I wonder what happend to the "report" about Kerry's
"mistress"? Hmmmm.....


--EE--
Evil Elvis
2004-07-11 18:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
He is referring to a skit on late night talk TV (? Leno) which featured the two
of them holding hands, hugging, and smiling at each other like lovers. It was
really funny.
Ah-ha! I wish I could have seen it.


--EE--
Sr.
2004-07-10 20:31:13 UTC
Permalink
WOW...THAT'LL BE WERTH WEIGHTIN ON!!! BOUT ALL THOSE TWO NEED WOOD BE THOSE
FLAMIN ARMIDILLA OR WHAT EVERE THEY'RE CALLED PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND AS
THEY SPEAK!!!
=SEN0UR TR0UT=
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
--EE--
David Berman
2004-07-12 06:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evil Elvis
Well, I am not one to stay out of a political debate here in AVLV.
Now I am off to see Kerry and Edwards in person when they arrive at a
rally here in town. I'll post a trip report. Stay tuned.....
--EE--
Will everyone who has had their minds changed, even in the slightest, by
anything said in this thread please raise your hands?

......I thought so.

So I'm not going to try to do that myself, because it is a useless exercise.
For the record, we are in the same camp as Evil Elvis and Doctor Tom. And
this time around, for the first time in years, we have put some money where
our mouths are.
--
--Best from David in NV
DocTCW
2004-07-12 13:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Berman
So I'm not going to try to do that myself, because it is a useless exercise.
And
this time around, for the first time in years, we have put some money where
our mouths are.
David---

You are right, of course, but when one feels so strongly about something it is
hard to stay quiet. A right-wing doctor friend of mine, with whom I banter back
and forth, reminded me that my vote, here in Texas, is worthless, so I too am
contributing money to the DNC.

Tom
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 14:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Berman
Will everyone who has had their minds changed, even in the slightest, by
anything said in this thread please raise your hands?
......I thought so.
So I'm not going to try to do that myself, because it is a useless exercise.
For the record, we are in the same camp as Evil Elvis and Doctor Tom. And
this time around, for the first time in years, we have put some money where
our mouths are.
--Best from David in NV
David, kind of like jumping jacks, a useless exercise. But it does get the
blood flowing and I find it very interesting to read what people think about
he issues in this election.
I'm amazed at how much many (not all) of us agree on, but have opposite
views on the candidates. I respect the other side's view, when it makes
sense, and hope they are reciprocating. Too bad that very little will be
done to fix our problems, whoever gets elected or reelected, which is why
I'm not contributing to either candidate. Also, neither candidate will be
as bad as the other side has painted him.
Andrew in Alabama
2004-07-12 15:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Damb, "BR Eagle" <***@yahoo.com>, do I have to 'splain EVERYTHING
to your dumn ass???
Post by BR Eagle
I'm amazed at how much many (not all) of us agree on, but have opposite
views on the candidates. I respect the other side's view, when it makes
sense, and hope they are reciprocating. Too bad that very little will be
done to fix our problems, whoever gets elected or reelected, which is why
I'm not contributing to either candidate. Also, neither candidate will be
as bad as the other side has painted him.
I am amazed that neither party has embraced the ideals that all of us
here seem to agree on.

This is likely to be the first presidential election since I became
eligible to vote that I won't vote for either of the major candidates.
Kerry is bad on the economy and Bush is bad on social issues and the
ridiculous boondoggle in Iraq.

Ron Emerson is my man, and will get my write-in vote this year.


----
Andrew <-- is it JUNE yet?

"Whatever happens in Unincorporated Clark County stays in
Unincorporated Clark County."
(Steve Harder-Kucera in alt.vacation.las-vegas)
Fred Sanford.
2004-07-12 15:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew in Alabama
to your dumn ass???
Post by BR Eagle
I'm amazed at how much many (not all) of us agree on, but have opposite
views on the candidates. I respect the other side's view, when it makes
sense, and hope they are reciprocating. Too bad that very little will be
done to fix our problems, whoever gets elected or reelected, which is why
I'm not contributing to either candidate. Also, neither candidate will be
as bad as the other side has painted him.
I am amazed that neither party has embraced the ideals that all of us
here seem to agree on.
This is likely to be the first presidential election since I became
eligible to vote that I won't vote for either of the major candidates.
Kerry is bad on the economy and Bush is bad on social issues and the
ridiculous boondoggle in Iraq.
Ron Emerson is my man, and will get my write-in vote this year.
----
Andrew <-- is it JUNE yet?
Why don't you vote for Pat Paulsen, Ralph Nadir, or Lyndon (No Johnson) La
Douche? I am trying to decide between them, or maybe just write in Hillary
to get an early start on '08.
Andrew in Alabama
2004-07-12 15:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Damb, "Fred Sanford." <Fred ***@Redd.Foxx.Org>, do I have to
'splain EVERYTHING to your dumn ass???
Post by Fred Sanford.
Why don't you vote for Pat Paulsen, Ralph Nadir, or Lyndon (No Johnson) La
Douche? I am trying to decide between them, or maybe just write in Hillary
to get an early start on '08.
Did any of them graduate from the University of Alabama with a 4.0?

I thought not.


----
Andrew <-- is it JUNE yet?

"Whatever happens in Unincorporated Clark County stays in
Unincorporated Clark County."
(Steve Harder-Kucera in alt.vacation.las-vegas)
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 15:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew in Alabama
'splain EVERYTHING to your dumn ass???
Post by Fred Sanford.
Why don't you vote for Pat Paulsen, Ralph Nadir, or Lyndon (No Johnson) La
Douche? I am trying to decide between them, or maybe just write in Hillary
to get an early start on '08.
Did any of them graduate from the University of Alabama with a 4.0?
But Ron Emerson did?
BR Eagle
2004-07-12 15:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew in Alabama
to your dumn ass???
I am amazed that neither party has embraced the ideals that all of us
here seem to agree on.
I think the Libertarian party has. Its too bad so much attention is paid to
the 'Green Party' but almost none to the Libertarian party. Of course the
libertarians are discounted as kooks when they first and foremost press for
legalization of drugs, which most Americans oppose. Maybe if they stressed
the love of freedom and hatred for big government, they might get some
attention.
Post by Andrew in Alabama
This is likely to be the first presidential election since I became
eligible to vote that I won't vote for either of the major candidates.
Kerry is bad on the economy and Bush is bad on social issues and the
ridiculous boondoggle in Iraq.
I think the President has more much influence on the economy than on social
issues and the 'boondoggle' in Iraq is not as bad as it has been painted.
I'd rather had my tax cuts(and let you have yours) than worry about what
Bush might want to do socially.
Post by Andrew in Alabama
Ron Emerson is my man, and will get my write-in vote this year.
Some people here might compare him favorablely to George W. Bush.

Count down to Vegas--13 more days!
David Berman
2004-07-12 20:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
I think the President has more much influence on the economy than on
social issues
I think it is the other way around, because of the President's ability to
nominate Supreme Court Justices. The philosophies of these serve-for-life
individuals do much more to shape the direction of the country than any
president can do during the four- or eight-year tenure he enjoys.

For those of us who disagree with the social positions of the Bush
administration, it would be a major miracle if Bush were defeated this fall
without the opportunity to have appointed even one justice to the Supreme
Court. Depending on the next justice to be replaced, the Court is one member
away from changing the course of history, starting with the repudiation of
Roe v. Wade.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Ron Reagan Jr. addresses the issue of
stem-cell research when he speaks at the Democratic National Convention. If
he's even half as articulate as he was delivering his eulogy for his father,
it should quite a significant speech.
--
--Best from David in NV
orwell
2004-07-13 01:30:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
I think the Libertarian party has. Its too bad so much attention is
paid to the 'Green Party' but almost none to the Libertarian party.


The Libertarian Party was also misidentified by Time Magazine as being
associated with Lyndon LaRouche. LaRouche has always identified himself as
a Democrat and is pretty close to being diametrically opposed to the
Libertarian philosophy. That error has continued to tarnish the LP as a
"wacko" group.

Time acknowledged their error, but refused to print a correction. Even now
(10? 15? years after it occured), there are some politically active people
who still believe that article.
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-13 02:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by orwell
Post by BR Eagle
I think the Libertarian party has. Its too bad so much attention is
paid to the 'Green Party' but almost none to the Libertarian party.
The Libertarian Party was also misidentified by Time Magazine as being
associated with Lyndon LaRouche. LaRouche has always identified himself as
a Democrat and is pretty close to being diametrically opposed to the
Libertarian philosophy. That error has continued to tarnish the LP as a
"wacko" group.
Time acknowledged their error, but refused to print a correction. Even now
(10? 15? years after it occured), there are some politically active people
who still believe that article.
Could be. I guess there are idiots of all stripes. LaRouche ran on the
Democratic presidential primary in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. He was
on the ballot on both states and even ran TV and radio ads.

Toad The Dead Vegan
2004-07-12 17:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew in Alabama
to your dumn ass???
Post by BR Eagle
I'm amazed at how much many (not all) of us agree on, but have opposite
views on the candidates. I respect the other side's view, when it makes
sense, and hope they are reciprocating. Too bad that very little will be
done to fix our problems, whoever gets elected or reelected, which is why
I'm not contributing to either candidate. Also, neither candidate will be
as bad as the other side has painted him.
I am amazed that neither party has embraced the ideals that all of us
here seem to agree on.
We're people; the two major political parties care only about kowtowing
to corporations.

Corporations have very different ideas than we the people do.
Post by Andrew in Alabama
This is likely to be the first presidential election since I became
eligible to vote that I won't vote for either of the major candidates.
Kerry is bad on the economy and Bush is bad on social issues and the
ridiculous boondoggle in Iraq.
And this will likely be the first presidential election in my history
that I DO vote for one of the major party condidates.

Bush is just such an imbecile; not to mention he's totally disregarded
every conservative principle there is.

Massive spending, deficits, and debt, a wide open immigration policy,
terrible treatment of veterans and a de facto draft of the Ready
Reserve, the massive wasting and weakening of our military by engaging
in an absurb war of conquest, increased federal involvement in the
public schools, and the shredding of our constitution with anti-freedom
laws like the Patriot Act.

I understand why liberals will vote for Kerry. What I can't understand
is how any conservative could vote for Bush.

Toad

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DocTCW
2004-07-12 18:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
I'm amazed at how much many (not all) of us agree on, but have opposite
views on the candidates. I respect the other side's view, when it makes
sense, and hope they are reciprocating. Too bad that very little will be
done to fix our problems, whoever gets elected or reelected, which is why
I'm not contributing to either candidate. Also, neither candidate will be
as bad as the other side has painted him.
Truer words were never written.

The die is cast in Iraq for better or worse, and I don't think either
side can fix it in the near future. Kerry is not about to pull out
within 6 months like Nader wants. What we really need is a resolution
to the Isreal-Palestinian conflict, if such is possible.

The real importance of this election however is that the next
president will likely be able to appoint 2-3 new Supreme Court
justices, and this could decide the direction the country will take
over the next 40 years.

Tom
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-12 18:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
The real importance of this election however is that the next
president will likely be able to appoint 2-3 new Supreme Court
justices, and this could decide the direction the country will take
over the next 40 years.
If that is your worry then the Senate is your real interest. Unless one side
gets something veto proof (and I don't see that happening under any
circumstance this time around) then filibustering will keep the fringe people
out on both sides. And, if recent history is any indication, quite a few solid
citizens.


--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
DocTCW
2004-07-12 22:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
then filibustering will keep the fringe people
out on both sides.
Didn't help with Scalia and Thomas.

Tom
Kurt Ullman
2004-07-12 22:43:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Post by Kurt Ullman
then filibustering will keep the fringe people
out on both sides.
Didn't help with Scalia and Thomas.
That is because the vote for Scalia was unianimous. IE everybody from both
parties voted for him.
Thomas was okayed by a vote of 52 to 48, this indicates that if the Dems
wanted they could have filibustered it, but chose not to. If anything CT is
the poster boy for why that won't happen again.

--
Talking to politicians about the economy is like talking
with eight- year- olds about sex. They have heard all the words,
but they haven't a clue.
--Michael Aronstein
DocTCW
2004-07-13 00:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurt Ullman
If anything CT is
the poster boy for why that won't happen again.
I hope you're right. The shame of Clarence sitting where Thurgood Marshal once
sat!

Tom
BR Eagle
2004-07-13 00:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by DocTCW
Post by Kurt Ullman
If anything CT is
the poster boy for why that won't happen again.
I hope you're right. The shame of Clarence sitting where Thurgood Marshal once
sat!
Tom
Why, b/c he has a different political philosphy?
The problem with leftist judges are they use the Constitution to mean
whatever they want it to mean.
Shawn Hearn
2004-07-13 02:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Post by DocTCW
Post by Kurt Ullman
If anything CT is
the poster boy for why that won't happen again.
I hope you're right. The shame of Clarence sitting where Thurgood Marshal
once
Post by DocTCW
sat!
Tom
Why, b/c he has a different political philosphy?
The problem with leftist judges are they use the Constitution to mean
whatever they want it to mean.
How is that different than rightist judges?
DocTCW
2004-07-13 02:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by BR Eagle
Post by DocTCW
Post by Kurt Ullman
If anything CT is
the poster boy for why that won't happen again.
I hope you're right. The shame of Clarence sitting where Thurgood Marshal
once
Post by DocTCW
sat!
Tom
Why, b/c he has a different political philosphy?
The problem with leftist judges are they use the Constitution to mean
whatever they want it to mean.
Clarence is a discredit to his race.

Tom
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